Women's Workshop - March 1996

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To:   alt.dreams.castaneda
From:   anon@nagual.com
Date:   March 1996

WOMEN'S WORKSHOP - Another Perspective

[I was away on vacation just after the workshop and didn't have a chance to write notes until now. I may leave out some topics since other women have posted excellent notes and I don't want to be unnecessarily redundant. Also I'm not sure of the order of what was said and when. These are my memories and not to be construed as direct quotes from CC and company - though I sometimes use italics when I am pretty certain that I have remember correctly. Corrections to these notes are welcomed.]

Carlos' first talk

The chairs were set up as usual in a semicircle around a stage. After a sound check, the witches, the Blue Scout, the energy trackers and other women in CC's group came in and filled the front row (where they always sit) and a few sat in the second row. But, for the most part, the second row was conspicuously empty - no men. Then, with an energetic and bouncy step - and a big smile - Carlos came in and got up on the stage. After much applause (though he always quickly waves in a way to say - enough applause) he said in an emphatic voice, still with a big smile, "Don't you think it's STRANGE for a MAN to be telling women about their BODIES?" everyone burst out laughing. [At the time, I remember thinking that it was a brilliant maneuver to state the obvious.] Carlos then made a number of funny statements about how scary it was for him to be talking to ONLY women. He spread his arms wide, leaned forward, smiling and scanning the crowd, and said, "Where are my FRIENDS [men]!" We laughed, especially when he said (a couple of different times, and always with a smile), "I'm not kidding [about being afraid]."

At one point Carlos said that, in previous workshops, he noticed that some of the men are trying to be "good boys and please daddy." After saying this, he leaned forward, scanning the crowed intently and said, "But I don't see and good girls HERE!"

Carlos proceeded to define for us the basic concepts he has covered in many workshops, e.g., humans as perceptors, the fact that we interpret energy, sorcery as the interruption of the interpretation system, the importance of practical actions, etc. He interspersed these concepts with many of his usual funny stories. [An aside: Carlos and the witches - this was especially noticeable with the witches (particularly Taisha and Carol) - would, when defining a concept, slow down quite a bit and speak in a careful, deliberate manner. Their jokes and stories were spoken in a spontaneous manner, but the concepts had a very deliberate feel - like they were making sure the information was understood. This was much more noticeable than at other workshops.]

Carlos said that men want a "mommie" and women are socialized to respond to this. At one point he walked over to one side of the stage, spread his arms and pleaded with one of the women in the audience, "Will you be my mommie?" The woman shook her head no - much to the delight of the audience. Then with a downcast and dejected look, he walked to the other side of the stage and whined, "Rejeeecctteeed......" Everyone laughed.

Carlos' clip microphone began to malfunction during the talk and the woman with salt and pepper hair (in CC's group) came up to the edge of the stage to help him. He had to lean down a bit and she had to reach up to adjust the device. Carlos had his arms out to the sides so she could work with the various parts of the mic and he was looking down at the device as the woman fiddled with it. Then Carlos realized what a perfect visual example this was of mommie running over to help poor baby. Carlos spread his arms out even further, cocked his head to the side, and smiled as he looked out into the crowd with an expression on his face that said, "See, this is how it is!" Everyone laughed.

Carlos said that mothers treat boys differently. There was a big *bleep* at this point on the sound system and everyone laughed. [One of those agreements from the universe.] He said that mothers don't plan for the future of their daughters - they just hope the girls marry a rich guy.

At one point we could all hear a baby crying. Carlos was very interested in this and asked the crowd if this crying was coming from inside the room or from outside. I looked back and saw a woman getting up and carrying her crying child out of the room. Carlos tried to wave to her to come back - it was evident that he felt badly that she thought the crying was a disruption. He said something, almost as though he was speaking to himself, about the child crying - being, perhaps, some sort of omen - like there was some sort of birth associated with this workshop.

Carlos referred to his [now famous parrot] joke. He said to the crowd that there was a joke he found very funny and said he had told it at other workshops and he couldn't understand why no one found it funny. He found it to be very funny. Then he tried it on the crowd. "A man is following a parrot down the street and the parrot turns around and says, 'Why are you following me?' And the man says, 'I'm sorry......I thought you were a parrot.'" The response to this joke from the audience was sparse. Carlos smiled and threw up his hands like, "See I told you no one finds it funny." Next Carlos walked to the other side of the stage and pretended he was going to try the joke on THAT part of the audience - that perhaps THEY would find it funny. Everyone laughed at his antics. He talked about how there was much discussion on the internet about this joke - everyone on the net trying to figure out what was funny about this joke. Then he said that this parrot joke is about "cognitive dissonance." In another example of cognitive dissonance, Carlos told the story of spitting, how, when Don Juan saw that Carlos did not spit, Don Juan said, "You SWALLOW that stuff!" Thereafter, Carlos said, he tried to spit and one day he accidentally spit on a woman in a car next to him who had her hand out to make a left turn. Carlos told us that finally he said to Don Juan, "I don't care if I die! I won't spit any more!"Everyone laughed uproariously. Carlos said this was an example of cognitive dissonance for him - the turmoil he felt about whether to spit or not.

Carlos talked about "rivalry" between women - how we are socialized to compete for men. He explained that men are "rare." Carlos made the motion of a finger twirling up. "That's all we are - just this little [and then he make that motion with his finger. I believe this twirling finger motion refers to some aspect of the energetic configuration of men.] He said that women are "massive" and "durable." Women are "doers."

The assemblage point, according to Carlos, has a shiny side and for women this side faces in or faces in and slightly to the side. For men it faces out. This is the reason that women can achieve silence more easily than men. Having the shiny side facing in means that women can turn off the input. He gave as an example the fact that women who are being abused in a relationship seem to be able to tolerate this abuse by turning off. [I think he likened this to a dissociative process.]

He said that women have never had a system which supports them as women.

Someone asked why the group believes that sexual intercourse is draining. Carlos said it's not so much the sex itself but the courtship.

Carlos said our race is coming to an end. Someone asked why it mattered to him what happens to humans since we are "just one piece of the universe." He said (with passion) that it mattered to him because humans are "my fellow men" and we are "magnificent apes!"

Looking at the audience, Carlos said, if a man was in the crowd, he would be "swallowed."

At one point he looked out at the crowd with a look of awe on his face and described what he saw as the "sizzling immensity of women." He made a sizzling sound with his mouth. Everyone laughed.

Carlos was asked about the idea of the blank check. He said that giving a blank check does not require your presence.

Information remembered from Taisha's talks:

We were all set up on the floor in front of the middle stage anticipating Taisha's talk. But then she came in at the end of the room and it became clear she had decided to speak on the stage at that end of the room. Everyone scrambled to rearrange and get into a position to see and hear her. The sound system was very problematic at first since the sound system speakers had to be rearranged. For a while Taisha had to test the sound and ask the audience if they could hear her.

Taisha told us she was going to "weave a story" and speak to us at a deep level. She said there were four strands to the story she would weave. [After the talk I asked a number of women what they remembered as the four strands. It was amazing to me that almost no one remembered all of them - including myself..... But the majority opinion was that the four strands were - and not necessarily in this order: The universe is female; We are beings who are going to die; Women have a "deep awareness;" There is a parallel universe - the inorganics.]

Taisha's lecture had the feel of a well crafted, carefully thought out story with a definite intent behind it.

Taisha told us the story about meeting her two inorganic friends (Globus and Phobus - sp?) during the time she was living in the trees. She said that after the first time she saw them, she was always looking for the inorganics and she implied that this constant searching kept her from seeing them again for some time. The second time she saw them [I'm pretty sure she said this but not certain] was when she was taking a nap on her favorite limb of a tree. [Incidentally she said that you nap by placing your legs around the branch - I believe a large branch - and lean forward, resting with your torso on the branch.] Taisha described the mass of the inorganics as being like "sizzling soap bubbles." She said you could put your hand right through them but also said that when one of the inorganics laid on top of her - she could feel the weight.

Taisha said that when she came down out of the trees, after living in the trees so long, she had to learn to walk again. The other sorcerers called her the "ape woman." She mimicked how she would eat - grabbing fruit off a tree like an ape and stuffing it in her mouth. After living in the trees the sorcerers had to teach her to live in the world again and taught her how to flirt and socialize. There were two women from Don Juan's party who had been raised in wealth and were very good teachers of these skills.

Taisha said that women are a tube - a tunnel.

She said there are two things we can do with men: We can flirt with them as controlled folly; We can baby men because they are so fragile and weak. She also said that you don't flirt with men to "control" them.

Taisha, at her second talk, spoke about recapitulation. She told about a woman who has a husband, kids and a job and this woman was distressed that she had no time to recapitulate. Taisha said to choose things like dish washing and recapitulate during that activity. She said, for example (as she mimicked washing a dish), with each dish recapitulate something. Taisha said that everybody makes a big deal out of the fact that she had the opportunity to recapitulate in the cave, and people use the fact that they don't have this same opportunity as an excuse for not recapitulating. Taisha said that, in truth, her recapitulation in the cave was not that powerful. She said that much of the time she napped and day dreamed.

[These are my memories and not to be construed as direct quotes from CC and company - though I sometimes use italics when I am pretty certain that I have remember correctly. Corrections to these notes are welcomed.]

Information remembered from Florinda's talks:

Florinda, as always, was very animated and energetic as she spoke. She had the audience laughing uproariously during much of her talk, especially when she talked about offering one's p***y to the wind. She said old Florinda was angry because her pussy had gotten bigger from this. Florinda said that the wind is not really the wind but "an abstract energy current." I believe she said that (old) Florinda had corrected the old Nagual when telling (current) Florinda about the wind - and (old) Florinda was adamant that the wind be described correctly as an abstract energy current and not just "the wind."

Florinda described the womb as "a thinking organ."

Florinda said they refer to DJ as the "old Nagual" not because he was old but because he was the previous Nagual.

At one point [I'm not sure of the context], she said, smiling, "You don't know what we go through to look CUTE for you." And then she said forcefully [in response, it seemed to me, to the felt reaction from the crowd about this "cute" comment], "Why shouldn't we [try to dress well]. We [all of us] are esthetic beings."

Someone asked her why she was interested in being a navigator of the unknown and she responded passionately, "Because it's exciting!"

Florinda spoke about the behaviors surrounding the sexual act (socialized behaviors) as being more deleterious than the actual act.

Florinda said that Oakland and Mexico City [workshops] "nearly killed" Carlos. She said that they (Carlos and company) are not healers - what they do (their focus) is on seeing energy as it flows.

Carol's talk:

As she talked, Carol walked from one side of the stage to the other, as does Carlos. She told us that there was much discussion and hub bub among CC's group immediately prior to her talk about logistical details and indicated this was not how she usually likes to prepare before a talk - she wants to be immersed in silence. Also she said that there was discussion among the group (CC's group) that she should begin the lecture by telling a joke - that this would be a good way to begin her talk. She said Taisha enthusiastically suggested Carol tell a joke about the inorganics. Carol said, smiling, that this joke was really funny to Taisha and would work for her to tell but somehow she didn't think it would go over if she told it. Then she proceeded to tell us the joke anyway. "How many inorganics does it take to change a light bulb? Answer: None - because they don't have hands." Everyone laughed. [Actually the way she set this joke up by saying how the idea came about and the slight teasing of Taisha made this joke hilarious - it was a masterful beginning. It seems like Carol often uses things that occur before an event by incorporating them into her talk. I remember her doing this in Boulder. She had seen something on TV just prior to the talk - some commentator saying, "Look at me. Look at me. Look at me." She incorporated this into the lecture by saying it ("Look at me. Look at me. Look at me.") with a dramatic tone to her voice as she slowly walked from one end of the stage to the other. That opening at the Boulder talk, it seemed, was related to all the judgements people have about how people think she, as the Nagual woman, should look.]

Early in the talk she looked out into the audience and wondered aloud, and with a smile, if there were any "spies" (men) in the audience. Immediately after she said this and as she scanned the audience her gaze suddenly landed on someone in the crowd and she said, still with a smile, "Ah yes, THERE'S one!" Everyone laughed. Then she continued with her talk.

Carol described the womb as a tool of evolution. She talked about various theories of evolution like Creationism and Darwin's theories, but said there were flaws in these theories.

Carol defined some the concepts Carlos covered in his talk, e.g., we are perceptors and we have an interpretation system. She also said that the womb interprets energy as it flows.

She told us that men must get to the totality of their being in order to perceive energy as it flows and since they have to work very hard to do this (get to the totality of their being), they get "ahead" of women. We (women) have it easy because we have wombs, however, this works to our disadvantage in that we dismiss this ability since it is so easy for us. I believe it was Carol who said that women who have had a hysterectomy also have an advantage over other women in one regard, in that they have to work harder - having had a hysterectomy makes them more desperate - so they are more likely to succeed.

Carol said that silence activates the power of the womb.

She said that when we intend something, a clear and sober command is needed.

Carol told the story (that has been described in many other notes) about dreaming with Carlos and going to a dreaming location where Carol was the wife of a man who is identical in speech, appearance, and mannerisms to the actor Gerald Moore. This story was told to illustrate the fact that the interpretation system is activated in these dreaming situations. Carol told a second story about seeing a creature with a big head and insect-like legs - and something about seeing shoulder pads falling to the ground. I believe this was another example of how the interpretation system comes into play - that it is difficult to sustain seeing without interpreting. The fact that shoulder pads was a part of the scene told her that her interpretation system had been activated.

The Blue Scout's talk:

The Blue Scout introduced herself. Part of her name was "Noolie" [or something similar to that.] She said that CC's group says that she is from another reality/realm (I don't remember exactly how she phrased this), and she said that she did not choose to dwell on that. Then she talked about two kinds of love - love based on the social order and the kind of love that sorcerers know. She said about 3 or 4 sentences about this topic of love and it seemed incredibly profound to me at the time and yet I was completely aware that I was not absorbing one word. It was as though she was speaking another language and yet I knew the words were English....Interestingly, other women who have talked about the Blue Scout's lecture, said they had the same experience.] The Blue Scout also talked about the sorcerer's path as being one of solitariness (not to be confused with loneliness).

She then read three chapters from her "father's" new book (yet to be published). [I became inordinately sleepy during these stories, not that they were boring, they were fascinatingly. But I became so overwhelmingly sleepy I could hardly concentrate. I didn't let myself sleep but I certainly could not now give an accurate rendition of these stories - you'll have to read the book when it comes out.... Incidentally, I noticed that many, many women, during this talk, had fallen sleep or were fighting it - I wonder if something was happening with our second attention.]

Carlos's Sunday talk: [Some portions of this talk and the first talk may be intermixed - not always easy to remember what was said when.]

Carlos said that we should consider him our counselor - a lawyer who advises us. Then, sweeping his hand to point to the women in the first row of seats, he said, "And THEY are the MOTOR," as he made a guttural, motor-like sound with his voice. Carlos said that people refer to him and his group as "Carlos and his women" when actually they ought to say, "The WOMEN and Carlos."

Carlos said that the women (in CC's group) are "massive" expansive beings and yet they are just "little twerps [referring, I think, to the fact that they do not have massive body sizes]. "Like my daughter (the Blue Scout)," he said, "She is so..." [He described her as something like sweet and non-threatening]. And then he said (continuing to refer to the Blue Scout), "but then ALL OF A SUDDEN....[Carlos made a roaring sound and lurched forward, biting the air like a dangerous animal]."

In referring to the massiveness of women, Carlos said, comparing himself to them, that he was still in danger (healthwise) from his trip to Oakland. Carlos said that he was supposed to have left (on the definitive journey) in 1985 - at the latest in 19 [not sure if he said '87 or '89. He was indicating that he had not expected to be around this long - and that energetically, maybe he would have been better off if he had left earlier.]

Carlos said that the witches get energy from "inconceivable places."

He told us that men have to "work so hard - you (women) are way ahead of them (men) because of the womb. You know it. But you're not interested."

Someone asked if we should do the women's passes that were taught in sequence. He said no but in doing a pass we should remember the "mood" of the witch whose pass it was.

Someone asked Carlos if the double was the same as the energy body and he said yes.

Someone asked him, "If you get rid of the flyers' mind, can it come back?" Carlos thought the woman asked, "If you get rid of the flyers, can they come back?" and he answered, "Yes, they can return." Then a number of people in the audience and also Florinda, from the first row, called out the actual question ("flyers' mind" not "flyers"). Carlos got the correct question from Florinda. Then he said, "It's the SAME - flyers - flyers' mind. If you get rid of it, it can come back if you are not.. [I believe the work he used was "vigilant"]. He said, "This is not a little skirmish, this is WAR." Then [I think this is the time when] he gave the example of the Chacmools' fall, and said two of them had recovered but one was still dragging around. He imitated a person barely able to stand, walking with great difficulty, sort of dragging himself to take a few steps. [Incidentally, the incident of Florinda helping Carlos by telling him the correct version of the question asked above was a good example of how Florinda is always so incredibly vigilant and on top of whatever is being said during Carlos' talks. Not that the others are not attentive, but Florinda's quick mind is always available and on tract and when Carlos can't hear a participant's question or if he is searching for a word he can't remember - he generally looks at Florinda and she's right there.]

Carlos made us a "proposition." He said that for 24 hours, we should, before saying anything, think about what we are going to say before saying it. [A way to fight the flyers' mind.]

Carlos said that he was having trouble with his teeth and couldn't just let any dentist work on his teeth. There would be no power in this - to look up a dentist in the phone book or ask a friend for the name of his/her dentist.

Someone asked Carlos about his experience when he "stopped the world" on the UCLA campus. He pointed in a direction towards the outside of the gym and said, "I was walking there - just over there where there are those little hills - grassy knolls. [Everyone laughed.]" Carlos told us there was always this Ethiopian guy hanging around there. And this was during the time of the "flower children." Beautiful young women would be lying around on the grass - "no panties." [Everyone laughed.] This Ethiopian guy would also lie down on the grass and would slowing roll his way, little by little, to one of those women and next thing you know he'd be next to one of them and put his arm around her. [Lots of laughing from the audience during this story.] Carlos said he'd seen this guy using these same tactics many times and it amused him and he wished someone was walking with him so he could say, "Look at that Ethiopian guy - there he is again!" Carlos said, "But there was no one to tell, so I was laughing to myself." Carlos said that all of sudden, as he watched this guy, he saw that there were flyers EVERYWHERE! He said they were everywhere, except where you could see gaps in some places between the flyers and you could see the earth. Carlos described it as though the flyers were so numerous that you could only see small gaps. He said, "Some (flyers) were big. Maybe the width of that (as he pointed to an area of the stage about 3-4 feet wide). Some shorter - low to the ground." He said this sight (of the flyers) made him want to vomit.

Carlos said, " People used to say I made Don Juan up!" Then, sweeping his arm, pointing to the first row where the witches were sitting, he said, smiling and looking aghast at the same time, " Well, I couldn't make up THESE creatures! Make up CAROL TIIIGGGGS???!!!!!! I'm scared to death of her!" [Everyone laughed.]

Carlos asked the audience, "Do you know about the rule of thumb." He said (in a serious and shocked manner) that this saying comes from old English law which says that a man can only beat his wife with a stick which is the thickness (or less) of his thumb. [Carlos was referring to the ways in which women are defined and controlled through the social order.]

Carlos said (with an grin and an amused twinkle in his eye) that there are two words that women say in a very serious and pronounced fashion. He said that when women say these two words, they actually move their lips in a exaggerated manner (and he moved his lips in an out slowly and deliberatelyand had a very serious and affected expression on his face as he did this.) The two words are, he said (and he pronounced these words very slowly and with a great deal of exaggeration and lip movement), "Luuuvvvvv and relationships." [Everyone laughed.] Carlos said emphatically, "If you WANT Johnny - TAKE HIM ALONG! Your CHILDREN? TAKE THEM ALONG!." [Meaning, I believe, on the sorcerer's quest for freedom.] He warned us to not get sidetracked by Johnny and the kids.

Carlos ended this last talk with, "I'll see you again."